Hope Dealer with José Rico
"Hope Dealer" is story-telling that focus on building connections and fostering a sense of belonging within our communities. Through personal narratives, historical reflections, and calls to action, Rico and his guests offer listeners a profound understanding of the power of love, community, and spiritual practice in overcoming systemic oppression and cultural erasure. Each episode is a testament to the enduring love and resilience that drive communities to resist, persevere, and thrive despite the challenges they face. You can join this community at https://joserico.org/
Hope Dealer with José Rico
Uncovering Family Truths in Stories of Strength with Jerry Hawkins
Ever wondered how reconnecting with your roots could transform your life? In this episode of "Hope Dealer," we are privileged to hear from Jerry Hawkins, who shares his family's incredible journey from Mississippi to the Windy City. Jerry offers a heartfelt look into the struggles and triumphs faced by his grandparents as they settled in Chicago's housing projects and found solace in the Greater Harvest Missionary Baptist Church. You'll be captivated by the rich history of this church and the inspirational leadership of Reverend Louis Boddie, which played a pivotal role in the healing of Jerry's family and the south side of Chicago.
As we shift toward self-discovery and healing, Jerry opens up about his own path of uncovering hidden family truths and the socio-economic dynamics that shaped his upbringing. We discuss the misleading narratives about the hood and the internal conflict of being advised to leave the community for success. The conversation takes us back to my school days at Beasley Academy and Whitney Young High School, exposing the subtle segregation within the educational system and its role in perpetuating disparities. Together, we underscore the importance of acknowledging these histories and fostering shared healing to overcome collective trauma.
The narrative deepens as we chop it up about growing up amidst gang culture in Chicago, influenced by the role models within our own community. This episode is a testament to the resilience required to navigate personal, political and familial transitions. We explore the emotional journey of divorce, the professional challenges of working in predominately white spaces, and the eventual success in creating a transformative family center in Dallas.
Finally, we celebrate the grounding practices that reconnect us with the earth and our ancestors. Through Jerry's journey and personal rituals, we explore the intrinsic value found in our cultural heritage and the wealth of our personal narratives. By embracing these elements, we discover a redefined sense of wealth, focusing instead on the spiritual and cultural contributions that shape our identities. This episode is a testament to the enduring power of community, culture, and the shared human experience, inviting listeners to explore these themes within their own lives.
F.L.Y. L.I.B.R.E. a guide for healing and liberation can be purchased here: amzn.to/4iCzAAM
Buenas familia, soy Jose, rico or Rico, if you know me from the hood. Thank you so much for your attention today. It means everything to me, and I want to welcome you to Hope Dealer, which is a podcast about our journey towards hope, resilience and joy through the stories that we carry about our return home, and my intention for our time together is to remind us that we carry powerful medicine within us that is our guide to our transformation. Thank you so much for joining me. I am so grateful to be able to introduce you to incredible people, incredible spirits that will share their journeys with us. All right, so I'm going to get us started.
Speaker 1:I want to welcome everyone to today's Hope Deal, a podcast experience about your journey towards hope, resilience and joy through each of our stories of returning home to South and reconnecting with that identity that we have, and so I hope my intentions for today is that you're able to reconnect with your own journey and then also get to know our guest's spiritual journey and hopefully connect with some of the teachings that Jerry has for you today. So I'm going to start off by just thanking you, jerry, for spending this time, and really I can't wait. You know when we were talking earlier. I can't wait to people to know somebody who's real Chicago yeah Right, because there's. There's part of the healing journey for me, and I'm sure for you, is because of where we are, yeah, yeah. So I can't wait for people to hear your story and that part of your healing journey. So, as we begin, I just want you to introduce yourself, your story, tell us a little bit about who you are, what you want to talk to us about and just kick us off.
Speaker 2:Okay, Thank you for having me, my brother, Brother Jose, I don't think it's ever been a time where it's been not a joy to be with you, so it's already been a joy today. My name is Jerry Hawkins. I am the son of Julia and Jerry Hawkins, two kids whose parents came here from Arkansas, Mississippi. You know, as I was sharing earlier, they grew up in housing projects in Chicago, so the stories that my aunt and uncles would tell me about them are different than the stories my mother and father told, Because they talked about like real struggle. My mother and father would never really like get into those painful stories speaking about healing journey.
Speaker 1:Even though they knew the stories.
Speaker 2:Even though they knew the stories. My mom still doesn't even talk about growing up where she grew up, you know, and my mother's from the Dearborn Projects just north of IIT, and uh, mother's from the dearborn projects, um, just north of iit, um, and my father's from the harold icky projects just south of iit, right, uh, so, uh, yeah, this. They barely told those stories, you know, um, and I think again, because they met at church, they were on a healing journey of their own too. You, we went to a very historic church in Chicago. It's called Greater Harvest Missionary Baptist Church. It's pretty historic because of the founder. His name was Reverend Lewis Boddy.
Speaker 2:To give you an example of how popular he was in the city, the first Mayor Daley went to his funeral, papa Daley. Papa Daley went to his funeral and gave the eulogy Wow On the Chicago Defender. He died the same day that Malcolm X was assassinated, but his name was on top of Malcolm X's headline in the Chicago Defender. Just to give you an example of how powerful he was. He built the church, but they were really popular because they had a 3 pm broadcast service that went all around the country and it was syndicated. So you know, just learning not only the history of my family, but the history of even the church that I spent. We spent like six days at the church.
Speaker 2:You were a child of the church. I'm a child of the church and our church again. If you don't know, your location was on 5121 South State Street. Yeah, so at the time it was across the street from the second largest housing project in the country, the Robert Taylor Housing Projects.
Speaker 1:Go ahead, brother. Yeah, so I think, and I'm pretty sure, that that was the same church my girlfriend that lived on 89th Street went to. Really, what was her name? Youngblood, regina Youngblood.
Speaker 2:Regina Youngblood. She was in the choir, regina Youngblood, did she have a sister? Yes, what's her sister's name? I forgot her sister. Okay, and a brother. I got to look at this. I got to look at this because it's a small world.
Speaker 2:I got to look at this I got to look at this because it's a small world. You know what I'm saying. It's a really small world, right, right, right. So, yeah, you know, we grew up in that church, like my mother and father grew up in that church. Both my mother and father went to the same high school, but they are four years apart in age, so they never saw each other. They went to Phillips High School, got it Right Nearby, yeah, and they walked the church from their projects, by the way, which is you know a few miles, if you don't know where. You know, cermak is at 51st, where they went to church, right, Right. And if they had a couple you know dollars, my aunt said they would take the jitney cab. Oh, yeah, but back then you could get the jitneys, yeah, and that was, you know, for 50 cents to a dollar. You can jump in with some other people.
Speaker 1:It was a pre-Uber. That's right, pre-uber. I mean, that's an idea that Uber owes the Jitneys some royalties man One hundred percent. That's another argument for reparations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, for sure. And so my great grandmother and my grandmother, they are the generation because my grandmother came after my great grandmother the generation who migrated, you know, to Chicago from the South. Wow, so they're part of the great migration. And I don't want to be—I want folks to really understand, like, what that meant for Chicago. Chicago became the third largest city in the country primarily because— yeah, two more of those in the country. Primarily because, yeah, yeah, two more of those. Yeah, primarily because black people migrated in the 50s. Yeah, and then Mexican people. We're going to be real clear about who came. Mexican people created these large communities, especially on the south side, and then we got to talk about again our Puerto Rican communities on the North side. So, again, people of color created the third largest city in the country, and I don't think people talk about that enough, you know.
Speaker 1:And when black folks came here in many places in Chicago it was called the migration crisis. That's right.
Speaker 2:Right, Migration crisis. I mean, I just think about the story of migration crisis. That's right, Right, Migration crisis. I mean I was thinking about the story of Lorraine Hansberry's father. He was actually a real estate owner. He created something that's again official to Chicago called Kitchenettes Right, when they would split up apartment buildings for families migrating here so they could live in a space that was so cramped. You know, similar to tenements.
Speaker 1:And that's very familiar to a lot of black folks that came from the south of.
Speaker 2:Chicago, yeah, yeah, but I remember him. He owned some of those apartment buildings but he was trying to move into Kenwood and at the time Kenwood restricting covenant. When they moved in there they blew up his house. You know, Wow, yeah, and I think you know, fast forward the story of Lorraine Hansberry's father. He wanted to move to Mexico and went down to Mexico because he said he had fought the racism in Chicago and the United States so much that he can't beat it, and she believes that he died of a heart attack because of racism. Wow, so he thought I'm his.
Speaker 1:He was conscious that I'm going to go to a place where I'm loved and seen as a human being, to go to Mexico, and, as you know, there's a lot of black folks doing that. Now, yeah, it is. So there's that legacy of people, particularly black folks, saying I want to let this racism, I'm just done with it.
Speaker 2:And contrast that with what folks are quote unquote, calling a migrant crisis here. And you know the border here, right, not talking about the people who leave it here, right, because Chicago is also the largest city with the largest black population lost in the country. Black people used to be the majority in Chicago. A lot of people don't realize that either 35% of the population. When I was a kid, there was over a million black people in this city, and now I think the last number I've seen is almost 700,000, you know. So we're talking about a huge town, a small city, somewhere gone. You know.
Speaker 1:So, jerry, but tell me how that history right and that your analysis right. I'm really wondering about how that shaped your healing journey. Like what is in that history of you know, of your parents not talking to you, because they may be trying to protect you from what they suffered and the church allowed them to understand. We don't need to pass that on to Jerry, including the bad stories. Yeah, right, so that might have been part of your healing legacy. One note is what is, what is your?
Speaker 2:healing story. So all these things I'm telling you are things I learned as as a late adult not you know I'm talking about. I learned these things in my late 30s and 40s and that's part of my healing journey. You know, my healing journey is learning these things. You know, part of the stories I told myself and others told me about the place I live was that it was a terrible, fucked up place. You know, learning the history of my mother and my father and the things that they went through that they wouldn't tell me. You know, I mean, my mother told me that my uncle worked for the government. He was in federal prison. You know what I'm saying. He worked for the government. Wow, he was working for the government.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we actually call that slavery according to the 13th Amendment Right, that's what I mean. He was working for the government.
Speaker 2:He had worked to get paid, you know, a fair wage.
Speaker 2:He wasn't job at sport bar downtown was paying his wage, you know. So, yeah, like when I'm, when I'm, when I am, I think uh, you know, uh, when people hear me say like historical facts or some, they think it's just like me, like I learned something and now I'm like repeating it back because I think it's cool or awesome or no, I'm telling about stuff I needed to know as a kid and I didn't know so you're claiming that, I am claiming that and you are accepting it and moving on and being able to share it not only that, one of my biggest ways of healing myself is learning the things I've been through, which is why I'm interested in learning about the places in which I've lived.
Speaker 2:you know, I'm like, oh, that's why I was there. I wasn't crazy, because part of you know, being in a traumatic situation is like the tricks you play on yourself, the tricks people play on you, you know. So, yes, it is. That is a huge part of my healing journey to learn these things and to repeat it back to you as a witness. You know Right, because I want to know if you notice it too, because if you didn't know it, then we, you know we both need some more healing, you know.
Speaker 1:And another thing we share you and I share is that we were both in schools that really rewarded and prioritized the intellectual side, the side of our really developing our intellect on an analytical and I was told by one of my high school counselors there was the only way you're going to get out of the ghetto and be middle class is if you leave the ghetto. And I thought that hit me hard because I was like but all the people I love are in the ghetto, Like the ghetto, you ghetto. You know 18th street and 26th street, those are the places that I know people love me now you're telling me I have to leave because that's the only way I'm gonna make it in US society.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that was what was, I think, taking a lot of our time and our intellect was that type.
Speaker 2:Oh, for sure um, you know, looking back at my school, and again I didn't, I didn't realize this, I'm talking about my elementary school now, right? So, um, if you can imagine, like not the, just the trauma, and I think we're all connected so we gotta can't, can't just like centralize our trauma, like you know, I'm having a worse situation because I wasn't. You know, I'm having a terrible situation because I wasn't. You know I'm having a terrible situation.
Speaker 2:But it ain't as terrible as the brother next to me. So I got to talk about it all Right. So you know what I felt after I learned about where I went to elementary school was very difficult for me to comprehend. So I went to a school, a selective enrollment school, called Beasley Academic Center, and Beasley Academic Center was a mostly black school on the south side, on the same block. I've seen the school all my life because I went to church there all my life and I went to Child Parent Center Farron, beasley Child Parent Center. So what I didn't realize about what was happening, even though I realized my parents, all the community, did not want me to go to Farron.
Speaker 1:Because that was closer. Was it closer?
Speaker 2:They were literally separated by two blocks. So 51st to 53rd is called a super block, right, and they created it when they created the, the projects, right? Uh, you know, and again the super blocks. That'll take me down a whole nother pathway, but farron is on 51st. Beasley is here, so there's no need for both of these schools to be here. And, mind you, there's also Terrell.
Speaker 2:Across the street, there's another elementary school, but these schools were known as dropout factors, and these are elementary schools, by the way, this is not high school, and so what I knew as a kid is I'm not going there, right, but I didn't know why, you know, but learning why was very traumatic for me. So let me give you another example. Beasley, as a school, is on State Street and it faces the Robert Taylor Project, but there are no windows on that side. All of the windows are on the Wabash side, where there are single-family homes, there's apartment buildings, things like that, and so we knew very early on that those people were different than us, though my, my family's, from there, right, but that was something you were told at the school or it was told at the school.
Speaker 2:We're told, um, even from people who came from there, like my parents, like church, yeah so, but my aunt lived over there, like what you know, and so, yeah, man, it was, it was really, it was really. You know, the healing journey I'm on is really like connected to how I saw my community, how I saw that. So, you know, we moved again to Auburn Greshen and also what I quickly found out was that I live on a GD block, right. So we see the older boys and men on our block and they're doing this handshake and we're copying them, but about 10 years old. So you were 10? 10 years old. They came to our group after we were doing it and said all right, y'all been having fun. If y'all serious about this, come over here, if y'all not, it's all good, go over there.
Speaker 2:And out of my friend group, I was the only one who said I'm going over there because my father wasn't going to have it. My father, again, was a Cook County sheriff, oh yeah, yeah. And my mother was an educator in Chicago Public Schools. So you know, I had some things that in my family, my life, that none of my friends had on that block. All of them came from either dysfunctional household or single parent household, either dysfunctional household or a single parent household. That's when I saw, you know, differences happening, changes happening, you know, even though these are my friends, and so they went to the side and joined the GDs. They went to the side and joined the GDs, you know, it didn't stop us from playing together, but as we got older, less and less of their time was spent playing, going to play basketball, ride bikes and more of their time spent selling drugs, doing GD, you know, going to meetings.
Speaker 1:You know People don't know that when you're in a street organization it's a business meeting, it's like a job.
Speaker 2:It's literally called growth and development. That's right, it's a job. When the boys asked us development, that's right, it's a job. When the boys asked us, do we want to join? They gave us literature. It's called read your lip, know your lip, they literally gave us these. You know it wasn't the best condition papers you could tell somebody else had this before and the photocopying was done a little clearer but they gave us literature Exactly. They also said y'all got to stay in school, y'all got to do good in school, yeah and don't be late.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and keep your word. Yeah, yeah, you know shit that you need to hear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the other thing is that I didn't see necessarily the people on my block as bad people. Right, they actually protected me, exactly Because these people were my friends I grew up with. Yeah, you know, when I came home from school, they protected me. Somebody tried to steal my bike. They beat them up. Right, these people were a champion in there, you know, they realized that I was going to be one who can make it out. You know, yeah, there's a reason.
Speaker 1:I believe there's a reason when you and I were growing up that our parents and people in the neighborhood knew that we were safe out there, Because they also knew that there was a code and the gangs provided a level of protection on the block. Oh, 100%, Right. So my, I mean you know, just like your parents, like there was a reason why they had a fucking commercial at 10 o'clock at night telling parents go check on your kid, Right, Because our parents were checking on us.
Speaker 2:Nah, my parents couldn't because they were working Right, exactly, my father worked three jobs. He had County Sheriff and then he moonlighted in so many places. One was the Taste of Chicago or Ashley's or Nightclub. He took me there for my first rap concert. It was Yo-Yo and DJ Quick, is that right? It was the wildest place I've been to in my life. You know 63rd and you know Halstead. And then he also worked at Athlete's Feet over there 63rd and Halstead as a security, as a security guard, you know. So he had so many jobs.
Speaker 2:You know my mother, again, schoolteacher. So she, we couldn't, you know, we had to figure it out. You know. Yeah, yeah, we had to figure it out. Yeah, yeah out. You know, yeah, yeah, we had to figure it out. Yeah, yeah, I broke into my home house a couple times she still was losing my key or, you know, trying to chase my little brothers. You know. So, yeah, it was man. Uh, if they would have known, you know where we were, what we were doing, you know how much our life is in danger. You know they would have a heart attack for sure, you know. So what is it?
Speaker 1:What do you see at some point Because, like for me I talk about, there was a point looking back now, that was a defining moment where I had to make a choice, yeah, about towards my healing, right, yeah, yeah, yeah and I've had to revisit that choice right, I had to go back into being intentional about my healing. After my divorce, I needed to go back into it, you know, when one of my kids was sick. There was there what, for you, is one of those important moments. Early on, you said in your 30s and your 40s, that's when you were more intentional about it. Was there a specific moment that brought that upon and made it more conscious?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for me, it was also a divorce. Like I said, I married my high school sweetheart from, whitney Young and, again, we dated on and off in college. We dated on and off in college, but we saw each other all the time. Like I said, this is the first person I've ever loved in my life and we have three beautiful children together. But, yeah, we got a divorce. And what I realized is when I got a divorce, it was the first time I had been alone as an adult, wow. So, yeah, like I said, I was in college when we got married and had our baby, and so I went straight from college to getting a job, apartment, take care of a family. So I've never lived alone as an adult. I had a roommate at college, that's right, that's right. So I've never lived alone as an adult, you know.
Speaker 2:And so being married 15 years and actually like living by myself was very difficult. You know, I went to a dark place. You know you know nobody at the door to say, hey, daddy. You know, hold your leg. You know you know nobody at the door to say, hey, daddy. You know, hold your leg. You know it was rough. You know Nobody scheduled your doctor's appointment, man. You know what I'm saying. Like, you know, you got to actually do everything yourself and deal with yourself. You know you actually got to clean up your house with no help, you know, yeah, it was very difficult for me, you know, just not to have my family felt like I felt, you know, yeah. So, yeah, that was the start of me being intentional, because it took me a long time to get out of that and well, when you said it was dark, what was?
Speaker 1:It took me a long time to get out of that. And when you said it was dark, how did you confront that darkness?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a good question as well, partially also because my father recently passed a few years before, recently passed a few years before and you know what I remember about my father saying is you know, if you are man, you got to take care of your family, and I felt that, being in this dark place, I was not take care of my family, was I. Was I fought for co-custody during this divorce? Yeah, um, because my first job I worked at a fatherhood program at the Chicago Urban League and I remember one of the things that was most prevalent with guys who were really successful is that they fought for their family. You know, and I don't want to my my children to come back to me as adults and say, dad, why didn't you fight for me, why didn't you fight for this custody? So I said you can have anything as a divorce, but I need co-custody of my children, and part of that co-custody was we were supposed to alternate weeks because we lived in the same city, right, but even in that dark place, because we were divorced, I was so distant I wouldn't even alternate my weeks.
Speaker 2:My kids were missing me, I was in a bad place, and so my daughter called me one day and said that you know, we have this tradition of going to the movies and you haven't taken us to the movies in months. And I lifted myself and I said you know what, let me fix this. You know, starting with myself. You know, let me fix this. So your daughter reached out to you. My daughter reached out to me. My daughter is about to graduate from college next month. So yeah, she reached out to me. My daughter is about to graduate from college next month. She reached out to me and I had to get myself together, wow.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's the power of our children and our relationship with our children. Bro, I just won my custody battle with my ex last week Congratulations. It's tough, ain't it? It's tough, bro. It's tough. Like you said, it is about fighting. Sometimes you have to fight for those relationships that are important. That, at the end of the day, is a big part of what I think you put healing into action. Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's about the relationships that we're in and the trust and the magic that happens. And you have to be in relationship to be able to do that. That's right, you know. So. Doing that, what does that say about you as a person, as somebody who's a racial healing practitioner, who's thinking about how do you change the narrative of a whole city, like you're doing this and going through that at the same time? Yeah, you know. So what coming out of it and doing? Making the taking the decisions that you take?
Speaker 2:what does that say about you, jerry? Well, I want to also say that I was, you know, when it started. I was actually at another role, but that other role was traumatic as well, and these traumas happen at the same time, that's right as well, and these traumas happen at the same time, you know.
Speaker 2:So my first uh, the role previously to dallas trht, was um. I was working for the dallas foundation, so I was working in in philanthropy at the oldest community foundation in dallas, uh, but I was the only external employee and I was charged with um. They gave me millions of dollars to Wait bro.
Speaker 1:What's an external employee? Is that a consultant?
Speaker 2:No, it is not a consultant. I went to the big staff meetings, but I was the only one who didn't work in the office. I worked in the community.
Speaker 1:Oh, because your office was over at the library.
Speaker 2:No, my office was in Community Bank and again, this is a Latino community. I live there too, but I'm the only black person working here. There are dozens of Latino men and women working here and I'm in charge of all of them. I didn't speak fluent Spanish, you know. So I'm just telling you like the challenge I had in doing this, because I was tasked with them, by them, with tearing down a strip club and building an early childhood collective impact family center for this Latino community that.
Speaker 2:I lived in, you know. So yeah, I also had to build the community um network of organizations that would work with these families right, and then work with the community organizing moms who kind of ran the neighborhood, you know so you had to get through them first.
Speaker 2:They were, they were they're still trying to get through them. And I didn't work at all. You know they hold me accountable, that's right. That's right. I give an example of some of my white cultured daughters. You know, man, and I didn't work there, no more. You know they hold me accountable, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2:I'll give you an example of some of my white culture norms that I brought to this space. That's right, that's right. So one of the things is because I had, you know, just these work environments where people work whenever they wanted to. I was At lunch, I used to pull out my laptop and I'd do a little work. Sometimes, you know, that didn't fly with these moms. They said, yeah, lunch I'm feeding you, put that work down.
Speaker 2:And then at 2 o'clock I worked just 30 minutes after lunch they say okay, it's coffee time and bring out the panduce.
Speaker 1:You know, bro, there's nothing to me to be able to work with Mexican women, Mexican moms, and just being in that environment is, I mean, that was and is still the biggest accountability factor that I also am in relationship with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know they would try. They would say, jerry, speak to me in Spanish, don't speak to me in English, and I would push back on them Speak to me in English. So it was a great relationship, you know. But getting back to like so fast forward, a year after this family center opens which is beautiful, that I designed and worked with with the help of the families, and you know, to make a long story short, trump got elected. That's when everything went to shit. So our community went to shit as well. You know, texas had a law that they were trying to put on the books, called SB4, to basically deputize all police officers to check documentation, status of people. And then one of our elementary schools got surrounded with signs saying Trumpies here, go back to Mexico. Right, only elementary school in Dallas, texas. And did you all know who did it? No, no, what we knew was the community around it.
Speaker 1:What so? It was a community where the school was at put those signs up.
Speaker 2:Correct. So yeah, so right here is my neighborhood and then right here is this wealthy white community. So we knew that. We knew where it came from. We didn't know who did it. But the parents said we're scared now. So that's when we knew I had to bring racial equity to this early childhood environment. You know, I couldn't be just this black person and I was doing racial equity work, but I hadn't integrated it into work. We was doing it because I knew there would be rejection of it.
Speaker 1:So this was 20, what 19? No, this is when Trump got elected, 2016.
Speaker 2:2015,. 2016 is the time frame I'm talking about. Okay, so I knew we had to focus on racial equity and now I had a reason and good cause, you know. So we started, I got a grant and we started doing two things. One is training our community partners on racial equity. Right, we had lunch and learns is training our community partners on racial equity. We had lunch and learns. We also created a program just for our moms and brought in scholars from Mexico, people from SMU, to do this thing called Abuela's Kitchen, teaching them about race through food, and they were going to write their immigrant stories from a racial equity lens for the final project.
Speaker 2:So the second time I'm doing this work, I get called into an office with the HR lawyer and the people from the foundation and my board chair and they told me well, we love the work you're doing, but you've got to automate it. Well, we love the work you're doing, but you got to automate them. Don't talk about race and, yeah, do mistake. Free work or Resign, take the severance. You got four days to decide.
Speaker 1:Resign and take your severance. You got four days to resign. That's how they treat you. No, four days to decide. Oh, four days to decide. Yeah, that's how the community foundation, the ultimatum they gave me, that, the ultimatum they gave me, that's the ultimatum they gave me, man, and so I can't believe they did that.
Speaker 2:I couldn't just do that, but what I learned from that. I mean it was very traumatic Because, again I told you, I built out all of those things Right now like they're flourishing and all that, which is great, but I built that. You know what I'm saying. I built that from. You know, from the ground up it was. I have a degree in early childhood, by the way, you know what I'm saying. So this is the quote-unquote dream job. You get to do everything in my wheelhouse.
Speaker 1:I get to be creative and I get to do early childhood education and race your record.
Speaker 2:It was my quote on, quote, dream job. But what I learned is, you know, just like when it's the darkest, because, again, I don't have a job and I'm on my own, or I'm feeling like I'm on my own. That's when Dallas TRHT showed up and I'm seeing this name Truth, racial Healing and Transformation, not thinking that it was going to be a way for me to heal myself by doing the work Wow but also confronting that I thought racial healing was some bullshit, you know, and it wasn't because of racial healing, because I didn't really know much about it at that time. You know, I think when you came to Dallas, you made this great statement and I love that. You made it in front of my staff that it takes years to learn the TRHC framework. Yeah, and then you said you're still learning from it, right? So what I knew about racial healing wasn't from the framework, it was from the 2016 police shooting In Dallas. In Dallas, where five police officers got killed at a protest for Armand not for Armand, I'll be frank for Lando Castile and Alton Sterling.
Speaker 1:And Superintendent Brown.
Speaker 2:That was the actual ticket to him coming to Chicago, because if that didn't happen, he would have been fired and he would have been some lowly chief somewhere. He would have never come to Chicago. He became a superstar from that event, right? So I'm telling you, this event led him to Chicago.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the event that brought this on for you.
Speaker 2:Because Kellogg said no to Dallas what? But when that shooting happened, they said yes to Dallas. Wow, so I'm just telling you that event is so pivotal in so many ways I don't know if you remember, uh, even with um, um, every living president descended on that city at the time and obama gave this great speech about race, but dallas didn't care. Right Right, dallas responded by putting a blue ribbon on every tree in Dallas. Right, right, did you hear what I said? Yeah, I said every tree.
Speaker 1:So talk a little bit about Dallas, bro, because I think that people, you know people from Chicago, don't understand how that, how Dallas has been colonized and the culture of Dallas. It's like a cowboy. Another round, please, yeah. And some water too, please, yes. So yeah. So talk a little bit about Dallas and Texas, just so people could understand that context. You've been living under man. How are you? Yeah, from what part? Wimberley Wimberley. Yeah, from what part? Wimberley Wimberley? Okay, where's that at?
Speaker 2:It's southwest of Austin, it's between Austin and San Antonio. Okay, so it's not the RGB. Austin and San Antonio is like 40 minutes away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not on the RGB side, right. What does that mean? The?
Speaker 2:real Grand Valley.
Speaker 1:No, no, no far south austin is central.
Speaker 2:It's really a hill country, got it? Yeah, good barbecue there. Oh yeah, yeah, all right. So, yeah, dallas, uh, dallas is a crazy interesting place. Um, it's central, like chicago, right, so it's a, it's a hub for the country to travel.
Speaker 2:So, it has the second largest airport in the world, but Dallas again wants to be Chicago, is that right? Yeah, I want to largest metro in the country. So Dallas, if you all want to know, always keeps its eyes on Chicago, is that right? There's a park in the middle of Dallas. It's called Clyde Warren Park. It's over a highway. They built it studying Millennium Park, you know. So I just want you to know that Dallas is always keeping its eye on Dallas and Dallas actively recruits people from here.
Speaker 2:So when I first moved there, I actually came. I used to come back home all the time, come back to Chicago, just longing. I was missing food, missing my family, my friends. And when I was downtown, I saw Dallas on the bus and I'm thinking like it's a sports team or this is like a no. It was actually from this organization called Visit Dallas who was responsible for attracting people to Dallas, and they said move to Dallas on a CTA bus. And I said how is this allowed to be possible? You're supposed to bear that if you work for the CTA, but they pay the ad just like anybody else.
Speaker 2:So they actively recruit people from Chicago to go there. So there's a large I just want to just share. There's a large Chicago contingent in Dallas. I mean, they have their own house music festival in Dallas. But let me tell you a little bit about the history of Dallas. Again, it's not as old as Chicago, it's around the same time but Dallas is the essential Texas city. Texas was the westernmost state to become a Confederate state. That history is there. It is currently the fastest growing region in the country. It is also currently Texas the largest population of black people in the country. Now, yes, really, texas has the largest population.
Speaker 1:Oh, texas, not Dallas, but Dallas is growing, but is Houston the city that has the largest population? Oh, texas. Well, is it Houston, not Dallas? But Dallas is growing, but is Houston the city that has the largest population?
Speaker 2:Yes, houston, because it's the largest populated city in Texas, but it's also the most diverse city in the country. Right, houston? Yeah, you know, yeah. But Dallas, particularly Dallas-Fort Worth, is a reason why there are so many black people moving to Texas. Most black people are moving because it is a business model of a city. I describe Dallas as Dune. You know the sci-fi movie, you know it's like Arrakis. And what Dallas folks, if you see in history, have known is that it's like the spice must flow. Anything can't get, nothing can get in the way of business in Dallas. So if you want to understand Dallas, it's a business model of a city. It's where people go to do business. There's no like cultural reason to go to Dallas. They have smashed all of that. I mean, there's still people there, there's tons of cultural gyms in Dallas, but they have adequately removed all of that and Dallas is split into like themed.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, so how did the shooting change the trajectory for you? You were talking about the trajectory.
Speaker 2:Given. You know what I know about Dallas. It was also primed for work of TRHT2 because of what was happening. That's right. So at the time, you know, dallas was once the most racist city in America, based on the largest per capita Klan membership in the 1920s. Shit, one out of every three eligible men were part of the Klan in the 1920s. And that turned into something called the Dallas Citizens Council, which was not like White Citizens Council. Those were like very racist working class white folks. These were wealthy white people who controlled government until 2017.
Speaker 1:So it was just an open way to control the city 100%.
Speaker 2:So by the time 2015, 2016 gets here, Dallas has one of the most segregated school districts in the country. If you count exposure to white kids and kids of color, Dallas ISD was 98% kids of color, you know. It was also the most least inclusive city in the country. According to the Urban Institute, it had the worst economic mobility by neighborhood in the United States. It had the highest child poverty rate.
Speaker 1:So it seems like you said Dallas and Chicago. Dallas imitated Chicago right, because Chicago was the same right 100%. You have the civic clubs who control those aspects of the city here and participate in the Chicago way right, which is where these individuals all work together to extract wealth of Chicago A hundred percent and so that's why we have this very similar statistics, right yeah, and this is why we're living this fucking thing, chicago still remains the most segregated city in the country.
Speaker 2:Right, you know. So yeah, dallas was primed to have an awakening. But as I share, you know, I was working for the Dallas Foundation, so I sat at the tables in which they made these decisions. When those police officers were killed, they decided to raise money right then for those families. I saw them raise $10 million in an hour For the cops, for the families of the police officers Correct, wow. They weren't the only people shot that day. They raised no money for the black people who were shot also.
Speaker 2:They made a conscious decision just to do it for the police officers, correct, even though a bunch of folks got killed, and that wasn't a bad decision all the way, but they raised so much money because all of these donations were coming in all around the country that they had money left over and what they did was a racial healing project in the city. But that racial healing project they didn't really care about black people killing white people, which is what they were fearful about. They were saying we don't want crazy black people to do this, so let's create mental health opportunities for black people in Dallas. And that's what they did, and that was their racial healing project. It was all about making sure black people have access to mental health so they won't go crazy, like they thought this man did, and kill police officers. And again they show what they were doing by surrounding every tree in Dallas with a blue ribbon, every tree, and there are hundreds of thousands of trees.
Speaker 2:Dallas has the largest urban forest in the country. What In any big city. So I'm just telling you like it was crazy, and as in any big city, so I'm just telling you like it was crazy. So, yeah, that that created the opportunity for us to really like, do some really city moving work in Dallas, because it was right for it. You know it also has a weak governmental structure. Right, there's no all powerful feral mayor like there is in Chicago. Right, this is a weak mayoral city manager-run city, and that's for a reason because the business community runs down.
Speaker 1:All they need to do is tell the city manager what to do, correct. And the city manager must have been living large representative government is also new in dallas.
Speaker 2:You know um they just had um 14 one um member districts in 1991. That meant that there's 14 districts in dallas and then one at which is the mayor and for the first time in 1991, you were able to represent your district. Before that it was eight at large districts where white men all around the city even took care of you know, or ran districts they weren't even living in. Just to give you an example, representative Democracy is also new in this place. We've had war politics here since the beginning of the city. I'm used to war politics in these all-powerful aldermen. These people didn't have no power in Dallas.
Speaker 2:You can. Also, the bureaucracy is lower. Right now I have all of the councilmen's phone numbers in Dallas Right, because that's how close they are to the public. Because they don't have that much power here in Chicago, it's going to be hard for you to get a meeting with your local alderman, you know, because of the power that these people have. So I'm just giving an example of how different this city is in comparison to Chicago. And that also left an opportunity. The opportunity is to create an identity beyond business, because business is not an identity, right. And so we started to do that work with TRH2. And I knew that this journey would change me in some way, you know.
Speaker 1:And how about identity? How have your identity transformed in this last 10 years, in terms of how you see yourself, your physical self, but also your metaphysical self? Yeah, yeah, also, you're metaphysical.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So because I've worked in nonprofit all my life, I knew I did important work, you know, because even as a CEO of a nonprofit you are closer to the people than you'll ever be in a corporate setting, right. And so at the Urban League, you know, I had people say I saved their life before, yeah, when you were here in Chicago, yeah, but in Dallas I had to learn a whole new city, I had to learn a whole new environment and I had to also, like, reinvent myself. So you know, reinventing yourself is difficult sometimes, but I think that's the Chicago I had. You know reinventing yourself is difficult sometimes, but I think that's the chicago I had it. You know I came with some, some, some, um, hubris. You know I came with some bravado, you know, uh, you know I felt like I survived the toughest neighborhood and the toughest community, the toughest city.
Speaker 1:You did bro. So I'm like you know I can do this, I can go with this.
Speaker 2:Moving to the South is tough, though, man, because you got to learn relationship politics, I think even more than you do in Dallas, because you may have somebody smiling at you and they're applauding your demise, Right, your demise, you know. I think that's different here, because people will tell you about yourself in Chicago. Well, what was it that you said?
Speaker 1:earlier today, when you're from Chicago, you got to be comfortable in all spaces and places. What did you say?
Speaker 2:All spaces and places, Like you know, existing in educational spaces and research spaces and community meetings.
Speaker 1:You're real Chicago.
Speaker 2:if you can do that, you know you got to know how to gamble, you got to know how to roll dice you got to, you know.
Speaker 1:You got to know how to. You got to be a gangster and a culprit.
Speaker 2:Exactly exactly. You know, when I was a rapper, we said we made an educated hood music. You know what I'm saying. So you got to live in those spaces and that's what you know. The Chicago helped me kind of reinvent myself in Dallas. I also became a leader of organizations in Dallas, which also changed the way I think about my responsibility but also the stress level, you know, because now you're responsible for people's livelihoods people's livelihoods in some ways, because you're a man, um, you know you're also responsible for their. Uh, you know the way that they think about other men. You know, yeah, the way that they treat you and then they may mirror that with you. You know, and then you have to model that.
Speaker 2:That's right, you have to be able to be that for them so yeah, so, um, yeah, when you talk about identity, um, you know it is. It has changed me in a lot of different ways, but grown me in so many more. Um, one is that, um, I just know, um for a fact that if you are committed to um something particularly like TRHT, framework um, which is all about, like, dismantling the things that harm us, I don't know how you can't be more powerful after that. You know right, um, that's right. So I don't identify as a healer, you know. So all of the healing work. Again, coming from a place like chicago, I also grew up very homophobic. I grew up very, you know, thinking of masculinity in one way.
Speaker 1:So even in my Of, course you had to kick people's ass Late 30s Dude. I grew up here on 18th Street, right down the street and you practiced fighting. That was like play right. You always were practice fighting. You were always doing that because you knew I got.
Speaker 2:You had to get down at one time or another see, I didn't know that I had again a angel by the name of kian. Kian was a older guy who took a liking to me. I had, you know, nerdy glasses, but I'm a tough kid. So kon had a younger brother's name, it was Baron, and Keon, because he took a liking to me, told Baron to fight me every day. Is that right? Because he said, I'm going to tell him to fight you every day until you beat him, because you need to be tougher. You ain't tough enough right now.
Speaker 2:And I dreaded going outside. I dreaded going outside, dreaded going outside. But I had to go outside because my little brothers wanted to go, because I knew I was gonna have to fight baron. But once I finally beat him, you know, but this is what I'm talking about, this, this type of toxic masculinity that was really you know him, type of him showing love, right he was showing his way in his way, right, but you know, creating, creating this you know monster, so to speak, that I want to be tough enough to protect myself and also to deliver that punishment at me, right, right.
Speaker 2:So when I'm telling you about, like racial healing or even going to any healing space, this is talking about healing, right? Things like yoga I thought that was for white people or for rich women, rich white women have taken yoga.
Speaker 2:Bro, I'm just saying like it was. It was not in my stratosphere of things to do. You know, in my life, you know, going to, uh, you know places where you know people are doing sound back like all that stuff was just foreign to me. You know, and still somewhere deep inside of me I still feel like what am I doing? You know what I mean? But it has been my biggest, you know, learning about like just ways of healing.
Speaker 2:But also being in those spaces has been so instructive to my life because what I realized is that it's really about humanity, you know, and that the things that fell for me was because I wasn't really in touch with who I was as a human being. You know Exactly, I was operating in this box of these stereotypes about who I was, instead of you know who we're supposed to be. You know, sitting in a healing circle listening to somebody's story, particularly somebody who doesn't look like me. I would have never done that living in this city, but it has been life-changing to me doing this work, seeing people in different ways, knowing that it is not about your color, your representation, but who you are as your person, your politics, right, I actually learned what solidarity is through that racial healing circle, you know, knowing that someone may even have my same politics but doesn't look like me, you know, throwing those stereotypes away, right, all these prejudgments.
Speaker 2:What do we call it? Throwing those stereotypes away, right, all these prejudgments? What do we call it? Like these beliefs that we hold and these ridiculous, irrational thoughts about people. When you hear these stories about what they've overcome and what they've encountered and they look different than you I'm like, oh man, I got to cut it out. I've been tripping. Do you know what I'm saying? Right, right, so so yeah, it's been eye-opening and life-changing to be part of those things, you know and it's just, uh, you know it's for me.
Speaker 1:You know that circle. I did a circle this morning with, uh, high school sophomores, right and um, and being able to be in that space where one, you know, one of the comments was like why do we got to be at a circle? This is spooky to me, right, because you know it was like 8 o'clock in the morning and one of them thought we were going to have a seance. Right, because I had the copal out and you, you know, I blessed the circle and I blessed the space. But at the end, you know, um, when they wanted to take the stage with them, right, I mean, again, this is one circle, bro, sophomores in high school right and all that stuff look weird to you, not knowing that it is your family's inheritance.
Speaker 1:You know, right, that you blessing the circle with these things that if they knew deep down were theirs, you know it wouldn't feel like somebody else's, but they recognized at the end that it was theirs and they were like we want to do more of this and thank you, just one circle, because that just means that, because you know, obviously you make that connection and you want to. That connection feels good, right, it does Right, that connection feels good and that connection is.
Speaker 2:Particularly if both of those people are open to the circle. You know, because that's one of the biggest things, you actually have to be open to the circle. You know, because that's one of the biggest things, you actually have to be open to the experience. You know, like I said, first time I was not open to it. So imagine doing yoga, your body tight because you don't want to let go. I'm just saying like you're not open to it. So it's hard, it's difficult, you know.
Speaker 1:So what's a practice that you've been you? So what's a practice that you've been you know? Because obviously, right now, amongst everything, you are still operating out of hope. Yeah, you have to, and that's what learning too, but how do you maintain that hope? What is?
Speaker 2:the practice and what is the discipline of hope that you practice? Yeah, so one thing I learned about in racial healing and this is something that racial healers do in the beginning of circles is grounding. Grounding the space, right, getting us all to be there and be present, right, they call it mindfulness, but it's really really, you know, getting us all to be there. Um, so we've been doing that stuff for a long time, but I didn't understand. I didn't have a practice myself with doing that. I didn't even know why I was even there for it. I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? Let's get grounded. I'm already about, you know, yeah, but I know what it means now. You know actually means to like be present and notice things around you, like, you know, to lose all of the, the tightness in your jaw and all that, you'll miss life, right? So every morning, um, I go outside and I have a amazing like greenery in front of me. Uh, and it's really important in the winter months because I got a couple evergreen uh things in front of me. Uh, and it's really important in the winter months because I got a couple evergreen things in front of me, because that's really important. Yeah, you know, I learned that that looking at nature is healing. You know, being in nature is even more healing, right? So I go outside every day, I don't care what the weather is, and I ground myself and just clear my head. No, I don't think about work. I don't think about work. I don't think about my kids, I don't think about no bills, you know, right, right, I just look and observe. I look at birds, I look at squirrels, you know, take deep breaths, Take very deep breaths. You know I might smoke here or there, you know, right, right, might get some coffee, you know, but I am like trying. Smoke here or there, you know, might get some coffee, you know, but I am like trying to be.
Speaker 2:When they say one with nature, I know I'm one with nature. When, you know, the animals start coming back around me, you know, because they get scattered when you move. But when you are so still that the animals start coming back around, that's when I know I'm one with nature and that's my practice. I do that every morning. You know, beautiful bro, um and I and I again, I notice the sounds around me, I notice the way the wind is blowing, like that's what I'm talking about. One with nature.
Speaker 2:Our ancestors had these, that's right. It's how they guided themselves, how they planted crops. We lost all of that, like literally living in the city, you know, we lost these practices. Now, I mean everywhere, I feel. I noticed the wind because I feel it on my face going this way. Right, so it's blur and do, nor right, I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have had, I would have known that knowledge, you know, if I didn't have this practice of grounding myself, you know, being one, you know, um, noticing my humanity, right, you know, we're meant to understand that. You know what I'm saying. That's something we're supposed to understand, that. You know what I'm saying. That's something we're supposed to overlook, you know. So, yeah, you know you can smell. As kids, we were more in one with nature, you know, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:We're like it's about the rain you can smell it.
Speaker 1:you know that's right. That's right Because we were outside all the fucking time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like our parents would say, you smell like outside because we were there, you know. So we knew things instinctively. You know what I'm saying. But we are nature, bro, we are. But I'm saying that. But I think that's again part of losing your humanity. You know Becoming part of this system, particularly as an adult, you know you lose yourself because you have to participate in this racket. You know this hamster wheel of a life that subtracts humanity from you. You know that's right. So I was. I was definitely in a space, um, subtracted from my humanity, and being part of this work has helped me get it back, piece by piece, you know so in closing, brother, um, I want to close with what's something that you're grateful for.
Speaker 1:So today, this morning you know you've been here a couple days, but this morning I shared. I was grateful for the sun, yeah, and for the warmth, yeah, right, because it's been cold here in Chicago, yeah, yeah, and it's been a while since we've seen this sun.
Speaker 2:You know Chicago winters, bro, look y'all, there's so many people outside of Chicago Like it's summer. It's still, you know, look, it's still April, but people outside like it's summertime. They couldn't wait for the sun to come out.
Speaker 1:Look at this. So that's what I'm grateful for. What is it that you're grateful for today, bro?
Speaker 2:Man. I'm grateful for all of those things as well, but, um, I'm grateful for um being able to recognize um and know my value and the value of people I'm in relationship with um. You know, I think the next journey of my um work would be exploring value and how we can turn things that we value into power. So I've been archiving a lot, I've been collecting black people's things, and that's because I've been, over the last 10 years, very intentional about visiting museums that collect black people's things, and it's not just black museums or even, you know, museums in the in the community, but every museum that has something black. And it started with this neighborhood that we're in right now in pilson. Get out of here, yeah. So again, when I lived in chicago, I went to an exhibit.
Speaker 2:It's called the african presence of mexico yeah, at the National Museum of Mexican Art. Yeah, and it changed my life. It may have been the first time I saw black people represented in a way that was so beautiful but counter to my culture, because it was mostly about Mexico and Central America. Because it was mostly about Mexico and Central America, it showed me black people living somewhere else in North America, and I couldn't get it until I studied abroad in Central America and saw black people speaking Spanish. And I'm going back to that to say that once those things were in that museum, to say that once those things were in that museum, for some reason they were valued more than the things that are in somebody's house or basement. Right, right, right, right. But those things in the house or basement are now what more valuable, right?
Speaker 1:Because they're in this museum. Right right, does that make sense? Yeah, it's a fucking museum.
Speaker 2:It is a museum, right, and so this museum, just by the space this thing is now occupying just for this exhibit, is now more valuable, even though you may have one sitting on your desk. To me this value is very arbitrary. It's similar to, again, the housing appraisal stuff, right, very, where we've seen all these stories about black people having to remove all traces of their blackness when people come into their space right, so they couldn't.
Speaker 2:The value could be higher it's arbitrary right, but I'm grateful for recognizing like, not only my value but your value. You know you're such a very valuable person to me and to other people and it's because it's not arbitrary right, it's because you've activated your humanity and by doing that, my humanity, others. You know you've done things you didn't have to do. That's because you understand value of human connection. You understand it, you actually, you practice it. You know, know, and so I'm very grateful for value and I think that's the work I want to do. I want to let folks not need a museum to find value in their lives. Right, they can actually say I don't know, my, my grandmother lived here for right, you know so many years my mother lived here. Now I live here. This house is worth a million dollars you know what I'm saying uh, and I can, beautiful man.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, you know, I, I, you know, being able to, uh, to get to know about the value that we inherently have, but also to be able to have that value recognized, and, yeah, recognized right. And so for me, you know, a lot of times people only think about value as currency, as cash, currency as cash. And people are doing a whole bunch of things to try to, you know, eliminate the household wealth gap bullshit, right, when we all know it's a fucking wealth distraction 100%. And so, to be able to be able to understand that the value that we have, not just our pain, but what we're able to contribute and what we're able to bring to Chicago and to this country, is so much more valuable than what we're exploited for in wages, that's right. What we're rated for in credit scores, that's right. What we're rated for in credit scores, that's right, right, what we are, you know, marketed to.
Speaker 1:So, to me, that is the practice that I think. For me, what I love doing, and a practice that I've just been the most faithful, is to be able to see that value and bring it together in my altar in my home right, and see my ancestors and see, bring water, and bring some earth and some flowers and be able to burn a sage and to be able to see that in my home, I'm able to value everything that's important, which is the earth, the water, the fire, and that is a value, and with that I don't need anything else. That's real Right, because once we know that we have everything we need, that is important to know not only that that has value, but that is we have all. Yeah, and that is the practice also that I talk about with your shirt. Love it All right, brother. All right Always. Thank you're sharing. Love it All right brother, all right, always.
Speaker 2:Thank you for that. Appreciate you.
Speaker 1:Thank you, your history books got it all wrong.
Speaker 2:So I come to you with a song. In 1810, con el gran grito de pasión, se levantaron con razón Black and brown fighting together On a day I'll always remember.